Curse

Moloch Vein · Nov 17, 2007, 02:50 AM // 02:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sab

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...t=soul+reaping

Click. Read.

Yes, that's post-Spirit-exploit builds.

Sab · Nov 17, 2007, 03:05 AM // 03:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

Yes, that's post-Spirit-exploit builds.

That was pre-Nightfall, roughly a year and a half ago, so it was before Jagged Bones and Spiritway.

Chthon · Nov 17, 2007, 03:55 AM // 03:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sab

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...t=soul+reaping

Click. Read.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sab

That was pre-Nightfall, roughly a year and a half ago, so it was before Jagged Bones and Spiritway.

1. Thanks and good job. This is (sorta) what I was talking about. And and excellent example of looking for the facts instead of blowing smoke out one's arse. It's also, I must confess, I thread I did not know about prior to you posting the link.

2. That thread is all about spirit spam, as Moloch pointed out. I think you've definitely shown that my choice of words was wrong -- SR was a PvP concern before the build known as "spiritway"; the concern dates back to older variants on "spirit spam," as shown by that thread. However, this thread only reinforces the general point I was trying to make: The pre-nerf discussion on SR was limited to infinite energy gimmicks -- first "spirit spam" (and its descendants like "spiritway") and later "JB-way." This notion that SR is somehow inherently overpowered even without a gimmick to "manufacture" infinite deaths is something that only gained traction when fanboys started spouting it post-nerf. To me, that indicates the notion is nothing more than a post-hoc rationalization, and infinite-death-manufacturing gimmicks (or the lack thereof) is the only legitimate concern on the table. Even if one does not agree with that conclusion, one can't deny the underlying fact that the notion that SR is inherently overpowered, without such a gimmick, is largely absent from the pre-nerf discussion, and therefore at least somewhat suspect.

However, I remain, as always, open to proof I am wrong. If you (anyone) think I'm wrong here, show me pre-nerf posts discussing SR as inherently overpowered even without some infinite-death-manufacturing gimmick.

3. I think I shall revise my previous post so that sentence is technically correct.

Ec]-[oMaN · Nov 17, 2007, 04:28 AM // 04:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sleeper Service

but that exactly the issue =/

in pve:

If you have to use SOLS, its because you are out of energy.

If you are out of energy then its because nothing is dying.

If nothing is dying then...you dont get the SR energy gain.

i nearly NEVER have to use SR except in the last ditch situation when a particular enemy is half dead and my toon is out of energy...and if i can pull it off (ie: the target is half dead) then i am winning anyways.

when im using SOLS in the middle of a full on party vs mobs combat its mainly for the HP gain. Stuff HAS to be dying else its all gone wrong.

Sry but I've started to (beer). If you are already out of energy and nothing is dying problem do lie else where within your group. Changing soul reaping to trigger not on a timer isn't going to help that situation anyways. Don't see your point.

Sha Noran · Nov 17, 2007, 09:45 AM // 09:45

Lol Chthon.

IWAY was not all about a single, overpowered Warrior skill. The players who thought that were the ones pugging for a win or two versus teams with no anti-melee. The players who understood the actual power of the build and the Necros supporting it were capable of many more wins in a row.

I definitely brain farted regarding the Soul Reaping from pets, it was that they no longer create corpses... which was silly enough to have me thinking about it as I typed out that post. Regardless, sorry to break it to you, but pets are VERY frequently killed by AoE and bad players in HA. Why do you think they had to nerf the free corpses?

Anyway, most of the stuff you typed regarding what I said wasn't so much a response or debate as it was an attempt to be witty and avoid realizing that I'm right. I'm not really sure why you're having so much trouble understanding how a Blood Spike would be able to create (and USE) more energy from Soul Reaping than is currently possible with the timer... nor am I sure why you're so eager to continue arguing when this is only ONE potential example of how it would be abused.

The timer on Soul Reaping should be left alone to prevent imbalanced builds from taking over in HA, which is why the timer was installed in the first place.

Sleeper Service · Nov 17, 2007, 09:55 AM // 09:55

...nothing dying can mean many things :s
often its because the last mob standing is a boss or there are several monks,the timer just went off and everything died at the same time, whatever.

thats not the issue anyways, i dont have a problem with SR timer, i find there is a small issue with consistent energy gain, even so that can be worked around.
The main problem imo is that there is no NEED for energy management skills in the SR line in general because...it IS energy management.

look at Reapers mark for example. pve wise its totally useless in the SR line since if one is using hex heavy single target methods of killing...then stuff will be dying one by one, triggering SR. But if you dont max out SR and you use Reapers Mark...you end up effectively gimping yourself in both atrib point repartition and use of elite.

more skills like Hexer's Vigor or Masochism and a reduction in amount of energy that SR gives whilst maintaining/implementing consistent energy gain would be an approach to re-balancing the attribute line imo.

OR on the other hand Anet could move skills like SOLS and Reapers Mark to other attribute lines whilst tweaking some of the other skills energy wise.

Turtle222 · Nov 17, 2007, 12:09 PM // 12:09

just do it like the dervish and give it 1 energy every three levels. no timer - plain and simple.

Moloch Vein · Nov 17, 2007, 04:49 PM // 16:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sha Noran

I'm not really sure why you're having so much trouble understanding how a Blood Spike would be able to create (and USE) more energy from Soul Reaping than is currently possible with the timer...

Actually, I'm having a lot of trouble understanding how they could do that, too. At least, doing in in such a way as to create a build that would actually have a snowball's chance in hell to win against a good team. Spirit energy has been removed. Exploitable pet corpses have been removed. Only way I can see it minions from player corpses either by suicide or kills. Getting more than 1 death every 5 seconds from that won't be very easy. It would also cripple the team in other ways.

Anyway, as for the real problem with Soul Reaping.

Soul Reaping is a very strong primary in PvE. Nobody disputes that, with or without the timer. Removing the timer will have little effect in PvE while creating a more beautiful and logically consistent game.

At the same time, Soul Reaping in serious PvP, non-reliant on gimmick death-factory builds, plain sucks. It's a more or less absolutely non-desirable primary attribute.

Soul Reaping in PvE enables the necromancer the position as the most resilient spell caster in the game. In PvP, nothing is easier than shutting down a necromancer caster. Energy denial is an extremely potent weapon against necromancers with their high spell costs, and interrupts work wonders against their long cast times.

This is why it was suggested that Soul Reaping would be changed to operate on a pip-based energy regain system. For example, for every death in the vicinity, the necromancer gains x energy regeneration for y seconds. This would actually make the necromancer stronger in PvP and able to outlast some popular pressure spells, while the so-called "infinite energy machine" would be stopped.

This is the best option I have seen.

Note to Arenanet. You have not fixed Soul Reaping. Given the state of the game, Soul Reaping is a broken attribute in many ways. It's either horribly bad or ridiculously good. There seems to be no middle ground.

This matter needs serious attention.

TaCktiX · Nov 17, 2007, 05:06 PM // 17:06

/Signed for removing the timer.

Not because it's necessary, but because having the timer is completely unnecessary now.

Burning Blade · Nov 17, 2007, 09:52 PM // 21:52

don't get why so much love of the timer from SR-NERF supporters. They just don't want timer gone even though many timer-haters here have already proposed solutions to change SR if the timer is removed. WHY?

Most agree SR was overpowered and will be somewhat overpowered if the timer is removed. But timer is the laziest way to fix the imblanced problem. Remove energy gained from spirits (already done) and minions; scale down energy gained per SR rank. These are much better solutions. Tell us why these options can't be applied?

All we want is a consistent SR which allows us to gain energy when we know and when we want. Or put a timer on ranger so he can only reduce energy cost of skills 3,4 times in 15sec, monk can only gain DF benefits 3,4 times in 15sec,.... how does that sound?

cellardweller · Nov 17, 2007, 11:05 PM // 23:05

I'm going to throw idea out there that was brought up in the big SR thread after the first round of nerfs.

The biggest problem with an untimered SR is the unbounded nature of the energy gains. Take your typical pve fight: 15ish seconds with 6ish bad guys dead, giving you 12 hits of SR after minions. With 10 SR, your average PvE necromancer would have 24 pips of energy - enough to cast Heal party and an echoed SS on recharge while never swapping out their dual 15/-1 sets.

A player reducing his SR attribute cannot help this - even at 3 spec, you'll be getting more energy than a timered necromancer at 10. In the same way reducing the effectiveness of sr to 1 energy per 2 or 3 points of SR doesn't help the problem either.

What does help is changing the SR mechaninsm to regeneration instead of straight energy gains. Eg for every 2 points of SR you gain 1 energy regeneration for 5 seconds when a creature within earshot dies. This gives a predictable of constant energy regen that a player can control by thier SR attribute.

Inde · Nov 17, 2007, 11:13 PM // 23:13

Any insult to an individual or the community as a whole will be deleted. Please keep your posts on topic and contributing.

Moloch Vein · Nov 17, 2007, 11:29 PM // 23:29

Well, in response to a deleted post, at least the part of it that was meaningful.

1. Spike kills once every five seconds in high-level PvP for any sustained length of time is pretty unrealistic and not even the dedicated Bloodspike teams that ran rampant in HA due to Angorodon+OG (pre-nerf) could manage this unless the opposition was very weak, in which case they'd lost anyway.

2. When I play PvE, sometimes I come across monsters that carry corpse exploits. Maybe you should try it. If the monsters can do it, so can you!

More Outrage · Nov 18, 2007, 02:09 AM // 02:09

At first I was against the energy nerf but got around it and don`t care anymore. And I don`t care about pets or spirits not giving either.

Now I`m thinking why don`t I get exhausted like ele`s that would be one cool nerf (flame shield up). Then all the bad necros would all change chars or go and play something else. Time to even things up.

Bring it on!

Moloch Vein · Nov 18, 2007, 03:06 AM // 03:06

Yes. In fact, let's make the passive Soul Reaping benefit cause exhaustion.

angmar_nite · Nov 18, 2007, 03:42 AM // 03:42

Yeah! -10 max energy each time someone dies! And exhaustion can go negative! Pshhh with my heal area spam, my minions never die anyways...

upier · Nov 18, 2007, 08:01 AM // 08:01

Oki since my previous post was deleted - and an admin warning popped up in the thread regarding the deletion of posts - I'll try to make this less flame-ish.
(Also this is PvE only - not only do I play only that, it's because a lot of people seem to believe that SR in PvE is fine.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Sonya

Oh but it's ok for Ranger/Necros to spam infinite Life Stealing 15 energy skills eh? Sorry, but, that expertise is the best primary attribute for energy management. With the timer on necros now moreso. Remove the timer on SR Izzy and quit being an ashat.

My original comment was something in the lines of:
"It's post like this that make it clear why SR should not be buffed!"

The less-flamy explanation.
Reason 1:
Touchies don't spam life stealing skills. They spam exactly 2 life stealing skills. Because only those 2 have a very nice synergy with expertise. It's not like they can do EVERYTHING better.
Reason 2:
Lets keep in mind that Expertise is pretty much maxed out in that build! So that limits the build even more! It's not like can put a few points into Expertise and be the dream necro!
And reason 3:
And this is the most important one - because it clearly shows how bad the example given is to this cause. The elite of the touchy build is .... Offering Of Blood.
The build is using insanely high Expertise AND an elite to manage it's energy.

And that is why the comparison is bad. The build would stop functioning IF the elite wasn't OoB. They would run out of energy.
It would happen the same thing that happens with all casters that don't bring e-management.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sleeper Service

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Signet_of_Lost_Souls

9 SR gets you 6e hardly enough to make a notable impact.

in fact anything below 8 is kinda weak. so thats a minimum of 11 SR.

if you are putting 11 points into an atrib and only have one skill kinda working THATS bad.

then again what would i know. only been playing necro 2 years.

And here is the second post that showcases the basic misunderstanding of the game.
SR is so insane - in terms of giving back massive amounts of energy that people have a very misshaped view on how e-management skills work.
An investment of 9 in SR - gives back 6E. (More important 6 energy can be gained at the breakpoint of 8 points in SR - which an advanced player will know! Or at least check!)
You also gain HP! (Which is important because the added effect means that the energy gain needs to be lower! Which will be important later on.)
IF the foe is under 50%.
And the skill recharges every 8 secs.
And it's free. Which means one does not need to have the extra few energy ALWAYS ready JUST to use the e-management skill!

Now let's look at alternatives:
Waste Not, Want Not.
5 energy / 15 recharge
At 8 in inspiration - You gain 11 energy. Minus the cost of the skill and voila ... the energy gain is 6E.
Every 15 secs.
IF the foe is not attacking NOR casting a spell.

Leech Signet.
Recharge 30 secs.
At 8 Inspiration - you gain 9E.
IF you interrupt a foe using a SPELL!
Not only does one need to be able to interrupt skills, one needs to KNOW what skill is a spell!
(The added effect if of course the interrupt, plus it's one of the rare mesmer interrupts that will interrupt anything!)

Power Drain
5 energy / 20 recharge
At 8 - 17 energy.
So the net gain is an AMAZING 12 energy. (And I am not joking here! The gain IS amazing! It's pretty much the best e-management skill the mesmer has for general use (outside the insanely specialized Symbols Of Inspiration build(s)!)
IF one interrupts a spell.
And that's every 20 secs.

Mantra of Recall.
10/20
At 8 - one gains 18 energy.
Net gain of 8 energy every 20 secs!
And it's an elite!

Drain Enchantment.
10/2!/20
At 8 Inspiration - 11 energy - 83 hp.
Net gain of 1(!!!) energy.
But you do get more hp then with SoLS.
AND you remove an enchantment.
Every 20 secs!

Now consider that all these skills are in Inspiration which is pretty much one of the most useless skill-lines for PvE.
So now we have an investment of 8 into a line.
With SR it's a primary attribute meaning one can pretty much invest into SR and a second line for damage and that's IT! Compared to Inspiration - which isn't a primary attribute. Which means one has to invest into FC (otherwise one might as well play a different class), a damage skill line AND inspiration! You NEED to invest into 3 lines which makes every skill used weaker then if one could just invest into 2! Now since a necro can run only 2 lines - compared to the mesmer which must run at least 3 - the necro can push up SR investment with much more ease!
Second of all - the energy gain of SoLS is BETTER then the gain of skills of a line that is DESIGNED to manage energy. (If we take into account how many times one can use it in a certain amount of time and under what condition and how easy that condition is achieved!) And you have the added effect of having a self-heal in it!
Third - you also get the passive e-gain from SR! The only passive effect that Inspiration bring is the LOSS of skill-slots!

And the jewel of this crown - Inspiration is balanced.

And for those that still feel that SR is beyond bad - load up your necro builds onto a monk. Or a mesmer. Or an ele.
Now make them work.

cthulhu reborn · Nov 18, 2007, 10:38 AM // 10:38

I suppose I only post because there is a small bit of hope glimmering. I still don;t like the previous nerf.
The current one is fine and makes more sense but just simply adding it on top of the previous one is crap. Of course I am not as enraged anymore as I was last time but if Anet think people have forgotten the last nerf then this thread at least dispells that illusion.
I loved necro's and have 3 of them...can't get myself to delete them and can't get myself to play them. Well done Anet. Now it's my paragon that got FoW armour and have given the 2nd year mini pet that my 2nd necro got to my para. At least my necro's still get mini pets.
Well done indeed.

Sleeper Service · Nov 18, 2007, 12:03 PM // 12:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

(...)

(Also this is PvE only - not only do I play only that, it's because a lot of people seem to believe that SR in PvE is fine.)

(...)

My original comment was something in the lines of:
"It's post like this that make it clear why SR should not be buffed!"
(...)
And here is the second post that showcases the basic misunderstanding of the game.
SR is so insane - in terms of giving back massive amounts of energy that people have a very misshaped view on how e-management skills work.
An investment of 9 in SR - gives back 6E. (More important 6 energy can be gained at the breakpoint of 8 points in SR - which an advanced player will know! Or at least check!)
You also gain HP! (Which is important because the added effect means that the energy gain needs to be lower! Which will be important later on.)
IF the foe is under 50%.
And the skill recharges every 8 secs.
And it's free. Which means one does not need to have the extra few energy ALWAYS ready JUST to use the e-management skill!

And for those that still feel that SR is beyond bad - load up your necro builds onto a monk. Or a mesmer. Or an ele.
Now make them work.

i dont get it. if you think a boost of 58 hp and 6e (regardless if you are putting 35 or 40 attrib points into there) will really impact the end result in HM pve well...

itsnothing its not even ONE hit from a mob and youll be facing multiple mobs. its barely sufficient to pull of ONE Necrosis (pve only skill) Not maxing out SR and using SR energy management is just misunderstanding the whole necro class.

OC most necro builds do not work on most classes (though i have some necro heavy builds for mesmer and such) you imply it yourself! They REQUIRE SR to function properly.

upier · Nov 18, 2007, 12:46 PM // 12:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sleeper Service

i dont get it. if you think a boost of 58 hp and 6e (regardless if you are putting 35 or 40 attrib points into there) will really impact the end result in HM pve well...

itsnothing its not even ONE hit from a mob and youll be facing multiple mobs. its barely sufficient to pull of ONE Necrosis (pve only skill) Not maxing out SR and using SR energy management is just misunderstanding the whole necro class.

OC most necro builds do not work on most classes (though i have some necro heavy builds for mesmer and such) you imply it yourself! They REQUIRE SR to function properly.

My other characters manage just fine with that 6 energy boost! Because that low energy gain is NORMAL! What is not normal are the obscene amounts of energy that SR provides! That's the issue that so many people fail to see. That people either cast less or bring a more then one (or even elites!) skill to manage their energy! And the necro doesn't need to worry about that!
Using e-management on a necro isn't a misunderstanding of the necro class.
NOT using e-management on a necro SHOULD BE a misunderstanding of the CASTER role in GW. But it currently isn't because SR is so insanely powerful!

There is a reason why the self-heal is mediocre at best. It's because the game relies on dedicated "healers". One of course won't be able to live though HM on self-heals alone. But it helps!

The best way to see how insane SR is is to make a mesmer. Or an ele. Or a ritu. Monk.
Put half your points into the primary attribute and the second part in the secondary attribute of choice. Bring only skills from the secondary attribute of choice - preferably damage dealing skills.
For example - if you choose a mesmer - you go with 12 in FC and 12 in Domination.
Bring Empathy, Backfire, E-Surge/Burn, CoF, Diversion, Shatter Hex, Power Spike (Or replace Diversion with WW for some spammage!)
If one does not watch their energy and one reaches 0 - one is useless until the energy bar refills. And that is how the caster class is played.
Now use that build on a necro. Even with the current SR. Put 12 into SR and 12 into Dom.
Strangely - the build that is so bad that it relies on an outside source for e-management (in the form of a BiPer) or just waiting till the energy refills itself at the rate of 4 pips - that build WORKS on a necro.
The necro just bypasses all rules of the caster role because SR is that strong!

SR would need to be adjusted (as in nerfed!) because of it's insane strength. But until we see further abuse of it in PvP - it just won't happen.
So till then - enjoy the superbly strong SR.
Enjoy it, abuse it!
I know I will!